Piper Rose and I explore how perimenopause is a unique opportunity of self-inquiry for women, non-binary menstruators and menstruating men, in order to live a more authentic life and embrace their body and personal experience.

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Warning: This episode is potentially activating to your nervous system, so please make sure that you are in a good space to absorb the information and have a soothing practice at hand that you can turn to, should your nervous system react!

(Peri)menopause – even though often treated as a disease and the “end of your life” – is usually thought of as a “women’s domain”. But they’re not the only ones experiencing this important transition in life.

And non-binary menstruators and menstruating men don’t necessarily feel comfortable in those spaces or resonate with the identity-centered experiences of “menopausal women”, so they naturally experience a tension and constriction that invites them into a deeper inquiry to examine what the experience means to them.

In today’s episode my friend and peer Piper Rose and I focus on this Rite of Passage as an opportunity to get clear on one’s values and embrace one’s body and unique human experience.

We dive into:

  • Why queer folks and non-binary menstruators may be better equipped for a more easeful perimenopause transition
  • The flitting mosquitoes of patriarchy that incite fear in women and menstruating folks alike
  • The powerful questions women, non-binary menstruators and menstruating men get to ask themselves when they come into (peri)menopause
  • How identity isn’t fixed, but rather something that gets to shift and morph and evolve throughout one’s life
  • The importance of personal values in making sense of one’s experience
  • Why transformation and change are scary, but a huge opportunity for something better than your wildest dreams

Resources we mentioned:

Piper Rose (they/them) is a NeuroSomatic Relationship and Intimacy Coach, licenced hypnotherapist and transformative ritualist. They are dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ, Poly and Kink communities. Their mission: break cycled of reactive behaviour stemming from complex trauma, attachment wounding, and ADHD to transmute pain into a path of agency, joy and unshakable self-trust.

Find out more about Piper and their work on their WEBSITE or on Instagram.

If you want to learn more about the powerful changes on a physical, emotional, mental and spiritual level that a menstruating body goes through during perimenopause, my mini course “Happy, Healthy, (W)Holy Menopause” (that once was a slow summit) might be what you need to dip your toes in.
Full transparency: My summit speakers were all women and more familiar with the experience as a perimenopausal woman. Nonetheless, I think that there’s immense value in what they had to share and offer, but if you’re a non-binary menstruator or menstruating man, you might have to tweak their ideas of community from “women’s circles” to “your chosen family/community”.

And if you want support through challenging life transitions, your Dark Night of the Soul, that is aimed and providing a riverbed for your own wisdom to come through, learn more about my Soul-based Coaching offering “True to You” here.

[00:00:37] Lisa: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode here on the Womb Whispers podcast. Today with my special guest, a good friend and a peer and another beautiful coach, Piper Rose. Hi Piper, good to have you here.

[00:00:54] Piper: Hi, it is so good to be here. This is a conversation that I think we’ve wanted to have for some time and I’m very excited to see what comes out.

[00:01:04] Lisa: Yeah, me too. So this conversation is going to be about menopause or navigating menopause as a non-binary person because that’s definitely a topic that society at large doesn’t talk much about, or possibly doesn’t even think much about, and we thought it could be a very valuable piece of information out there.

So Piper, before we start off, would you maybe like to introduce yourself a little, your work in the world, who you are, what you do, what you’re fascinated about, anything?

[00:01:37] Piper: Yes, yes. So Piper Rose, my pronouns are they, them. I live in the United States between Seattle, Washington and Denver, Colorado. I’m a Neuro-Somatic Relationship and Intimacy Coach and that means that I work on supporting people to have really incredible, secure, connective relationships from a place of a healed nervous system. A nervous system that has been able to let go of reactivities sourced from CPTSD, ADHD, attachment wounding. That’s what I do.

And it is also my passion, it’s also what I’m very into. I love understanding how the brain works, how to truly transform our baseline by working top-down with our stories and our beliefs and bottom-up with our nervous system and the actual neuroplasticity that we have access to. I love art and seeing how people create in the world and express in the world.

I will go almost anywhere for a vegan gluten-free dessert because I can’t have dairy or gluten. And then dancing, I think it’s the last thing, like really joyful movement, I love to dance.

[00:03:04] Lisa: Amazing. Thank you. So this topic, how it all came about, Piper and I are both taking a course by Flourish Institute as a female pelvic health specialist. There was a module on menopause or perimenopause and we had to ask each other some questions for our coaching practicum that we were doing.

There were questions like “What beliefs or what impression did your mother give you around menopause?”, “How do you feel about menopause?”, “How do you think society treats menopausal women?” I think that was roughly the point where we went into a different train of thoughts and we were like, “Yeah, society only thinks about menopausal women, but what about the non-binary folks?”

So that’s how this all came about and started. And given all of that, let’s dive into it. And also what I found really interesting was, where I was totally fascinated about menopause and had such a, you know, for me, it has always been this magical time and transition into the wisdom years, into the wise elder years. It was a different story for you when I asked you these questions. So maybe let’s start there and what your impression of menopause was.

[00:04:29] Piper: Oh yeah. When you say what my impression of menopause was, I’m just going to say right now, I have ADHD. I don’t know what I said when we talked, but I could tell you what I think about it right now in this moment. That’s what I have access to.

I was thinking a lot about this in preparation for our time together and thinking about the wisdom that is possible by leaning into how non-binary or trans folks experience their bodies and changes within their bodies. I think what’s particularly beautiful and striking is that I will share about my experience while fully knowing and admitting that there are going to be many different experiences. I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that.

Many folks born and really aligning to their gender identity or their sex assigned at birth, they could go their whole life without a certain constriction, a tension, a rub that sparks a tremendous amount of self-reflection and inquiry.

As queer folks, still in this world, there’s a lot of feedback that what we do with love or our choices in partnership and family or our choices in community or choices with our bodies are politicized in some way, judged in some way, sometimes perceived as not average.

The only reason that that’s true is because there’s a heteronormative paradigm that most of the world runs on and accepts to be the baseline and that average. Now we know from research that that’s not true. That normal and average doesn’t actually exist. It’s this real beautiful cacophony with high points in different … like, if it was a chart, there’d be clusters of different types of expression and experience, but they would be moving and overlapping and overlaying.

That’s much more what’s happening than just this homogenous line that we sort of delusionally believe is some normal.

That being said, there are folks that receive enough comforting messaging or messaging that allows them to be passive and not examine their body or their identity at certain levels, the way that they love, who they want to be, that they don’t ever have to ask deeper questions. Which is fine, there’s no judgment there.

And there is a rub for those of us who get mirrored back that our experiences are may be not in a social paradigm or understandings that we don’t see ourselves or have ourselves acknowledged in a deep way by our medical care professionals or different communities. And so menopause is really one of those, because so often it’s like a women’s domain.

As a non-binary person that doesn’t necessarily feel super comfortable in those spaces or resonate with the identity-centered experiences of menopausal women, I am naturally born with that rub, that friction, that constriction that goes, “Is this for me?” and I am invited to examine that.

What is menopause for me? What is my womb, my moon time, my bleed, my arc of evolution? And I’m very aligned with you that it’s the arc of evolution towards adulthood, that there is a profound transformation and shift that occurs. So that’s where I’ll start and then I’m curious what sparked for you when I say some of those things.

[00:08:36] Lisa: Yeah, exactly that one thing, because what I see in a lot of menopausal women, and I say women specifically, is that when they come to perimenopause, suddenly they are asked to ask all these questions that you have to ask so much earlier. And that’s like, again, not everyone, but that’s an age where a lot of reflection happens.

“Do I want to continue living my life like that? Is that really the relationship I’m happy in? Now my children are out of the house, what do I do with my life, now it finally belongs to me again? Oh, I feel like I never had a life of my own.”

And it’s this question of reclaiming one’s power. Because the question of, “Okay, how do I want to go about this? What do I make of my womb? What do I make of my moon time?” Those are questions that are powerful. And they help see and realize one’s own power and have their yes and no.

[00:09:42] Piper: Yes, you 100% got it. So a lot of folks, queer folks, LGBTQ folks, trans folks, non-binary folks, we have to ask those questions much earlier. And I, for one, I do not see my sex organs or my reproductive system as inherently assigned to a gender. For me, that’s a magical cosmic portal full of sensation and emotion and just luxurious, delicious, pleasurable opportunity.

And I relate to it as that. I don’t see it as defining my gender or even my sex because I don’t know what’s going on in there. I could have one of the many dozens of variations of internal systems that we can perceive from the outside. So I really tune in to how I feel about it.

Now, for me, my moon time is awesome. I had endometriosis for several years that made it really painful. But honestly, that was a sort of profound spiritual experience, surrendering to that degree of pain and surrendering to a body that isn’t going to give me an alternative to an experience. I did learn a lot. That was a very deep and profound spiritual journey, very much an ordeal.

Now, I did have surgery and my pain went down a lot. In the times when I’ve had manageable pain, there is a different experience. One of deep respect and learning, intimate relationship to the cycles, seasons, the moon. I mean, the fact that I can bleed out of my yoni every month, I think it’s very metal. It’s very cool. I think it’s so fucking cool.

And I was taught from a very young age that this was a sacred part of the process that’s happening in my body each month, aligning with the larger cycles. That it is an opportunity to feel all that has happened and to reflect on the last 28-ish days and to send out of my system anything that needs to be exited from my system.

I was given that gift from my mother, from my mother’s peers and later from other teachers as I had gotten older and into my twenties. So I’ve had this really beautiful relationship to it. But a very conflicted relationship with being in women’s spaces because I never really felt like a woman. I never connected with, like, goddess energy.

That is so cosmic to me and just potent, but it’s not something that I assigned to goddesshood or womanhood. So for me, that’s not true for every trans or non-binary person. A lot of folks have complicated feelings about it. A lot of folks love it. So approaching menopause for me is this next leg of the cosmic journey.

What will I transform into and become? I do have an intention as a member of a community that has a strong concept of chosen family. I don’t have children from my own body. So who do I become in community? What spaciousness, what softening, what stability comes after this next ordeal or transformation? I don’t know. I do know I’m leaning into elderhood. I’m leaning into welcoming whatever wisdom arises. I’m very, very excited about it.

But for me, it’s not associated with my life identities. Like you mentioned, like motherhood or your partnerships, this is not led by that. I think that also being a bit aware of concepts of patriarchy and the male gaze has also been super helpful, where I get to challenge, okay, what concerns, questions, judgments about menopause are left over from that.

From what I see in society as people who are assigned female at birth losing their value, losing their sexiness, losing their power. I see that, that is not lost on me. I don’t get to be free from that just because I question it. In fact, I will say questioning it gives me some liberation, speciousness, but it is deep. It is deep in there and it will creep up on me all the time.

I definitely struggle with what happens to me sexually. Like that’s such a huge part of my identity and later in life, I was able to be really comfortable in my body and my identity and enjoy sex, which wasn’t always true. So I’m like, “Oh no, what happens? Do I lose that now?” Like do I lose that literal wetness, you know, that moistness, that desire?

There are certainly things that I’m biting my nails a little bit, fretting about, but what I’ve learned from being transgender and especially having top surgery is that I will discover new ways of being erotic and being sensual and being sexual that I could not even dream up before these massive transmutative, transformative life experiences happen.

So even though I still have the flitting, annoying, mosquito-like bites of patriarchal indoctrination into some terror that if I lose aspects of myself, I lose value, I still have those. But I really get to lean into this lived experience. That’s like, I undergo a massive transformation and things that I could never predicted become possible.

So I would also like to lean into elderhood and not knowing who I get to be as an elder or what it means for my community, but being very curious. I’m also leaning into my sexual and sensual identity, my erotic power that might come in a new way with this transformation in ways I can’t possibly imagine.

And also, my God, I feel like I’m going to grieve my monthly bleed so much! I just, like, again, it’s just so tough. It’s so metal. I love it. I’m like, God, I’m such a badass, I love it. But, you know, there’s going to be some other badassness that I’m sure I’ll encounter.

[00:16:27] Lisa: Oh, yeah. I can see that in your future, or I sense that in your future. And what I find very remarkable is that you do cherish your moon time so much where, I mean, even many women struggle with that. So it’s amazing that at least in that regard, you have received a lot of wisdom and sacredness and reverence through your mom. That is amazing.

[00:16:58] Piper: Yeah. And you know what it reminds me of there? There’s this very fascinating study that there are trans men whose organ systems are still intact and they become parents. They have a baby grow in their body and they give birth to this baby. And what happens, they studied C-sections and vaginal births.

And those with C-sections had increased dysphoria, their body felt just foreign, not really sitting right. Vaginal births, in my mind, I thought, “Oh, my God, that’s going to amplify their dysphoria.” No. The vaginal birth led to decreases in dysphoria and more euphoric experiences in their body.

Now, what is the theory here? A lot of the reported experiences were like, “That was so powerful. I was so powerful in my body. I fucking grew a baby. I gave birth to a baby. This thing is badass.” And I sort of feel similar. Like, part of what has decreased my dysphoria, at least for myself, is getting in touch with how badass and powerful my moon cycle is for me.

I can relate to it. I can find power in it. That is an intimate relationship, it cannot be judged or compared to anyone else. But I do think that coming into that, decreases my dysphoria. And I wonder if as I age and as menopause comes into my womb and changes my energy and my cycles, if I will find a different type of comfort in my own skin.

That I’ll be increasingly on the path of being comfortable rather than uncomfortable. And again, I think it’s that root of questioning identity very young and being forced to be curious, being forced to know that you don’t know.

[00:19:01] Lisa: Yeah. And isn’t that what most people are most afraid of? This fear of the unknown? I mean, logically, it makes sense that our brain is afraid of anything that is unknown. And it’s about becoming more and more comfortable with sitting in this unknown, which is a process on its own.

What I found remarkable when you explained how you’re approaching this whole transition is that you have had to learn this curiosity from a very young age. So you approach the transition with the same curiosity that many people haven’t learned at that stage, because in our society, everything is just so defined and we’re put into a box and “This is your place and please don’t get out of there because we don’t want you to disrupt the system that is actually harming you, but we gain from it.” So basically the perspective.

And what you did, what you described, was how change works. Change is always a little uncomfortable. There will very possibly be a discomfort. And also there is possibility on the other side. It’s not, “Oh, I lose all of this.” You might. And also, you don’t know if that what you gain from the other side isn’t even better.

And I feel like you have had these moments in your life, so many more of those, where you did find that, “Oh, on the other side of the change, it’s even better. So I don’t mind losing parts of me.” We are dying on a monthly basis anyway, part of us is dying and something else is reborn.

[00:20:47] Piper: Yes. Yeah. And I would also say the other wisdom, the other gem in my personal trans/non-binary experience is the agency. I am responsible for my identity. I am responsible for my authenticity. I am responsible for that. Because my signals might be much higher, my threshold might be much tighter actually, that I notice more quickly if something feels inauthentic by being in this tension with a larger sort of heteronormative world.

I’m the one that gets to choose this. I get to choose what I wear that feels good. I get to choose how I present in the world, what types of relationships I have, what I do to my body that is going to feel really good. Like, I get to choose that, and I’m the only one that’s going to do it. Because society is not going to give me the script. I got to sit down and I have to write it out.

So that’s the other thing, is menopause is going to happen. And yes, I have these flitting mosquitoes of patriarchy that incite fear. But I know I’m the one that writes the script as I have always done. And there’s something very empowering about that.

There might also be a sad sort of cool thing in here that it is – I’m very used to society looking at me and being like, “You’re not valid. That’s not a real thing.” I’m like, “I’m pretty sure I’m me every day and I’m pretty real.” But this fear to be seen differently that so many women, I’m guessing, do face about their vitality and their worth and their value and contribution.

I already, it’s sad but true, have to learn to rebuke that in order to survive, for my own heart and mental health and spirit. I do have to learn to say, “I don’t really care how you see me because I know who I am.” And I know who I want to be. And that’s governed by values, not some identity.

My identity shifts and I welcome that. I’ve experienced that. I can’t imagine your identity not shifting for your whole life. How terrifying to do anything, it would feel so fragile, I think. But yeah, it’s different. And I’m used to having to say, “I don’t care what you think. You don’t get to decide how I feel or experience this reality. And I’m sorry that you want to push me away rather than be intimate and connective.”

[00:23:54] Lisa: Or maybe just be open to making a new experience and getting to know another human being and widening your horizon.

[00:24:03] Piper: Yeah. For some people, that’s not safe. And you know, this honestly goes back to the nervous system work I do, which is if the nervous system doesn’t feel safe, which for most of us, it doesn’t a lot. There’s a lot going on in the world. We have a lot of stimulation and we’ve had a lot of attachment wounding. This body, this physiological body is giving us signals that we have to fight or flee or fawn or fall asleep.

You know, our body is giving us these signals and our brain is struggling to make sense of them and build a story off of them so that we have some coherence. And I think there’s a lot that I personally get to have access to, that comes from healing my nervous system. Which means, sure, these mosquitoes of patriarchy are bothering me, but those fears don’t get to take root.

They actually don’t get to kick off a fight or flight response. They don’t get to create cycles of reactivity or terror in which I constantly am abandoning my authentic self so that I can survive. I don’t have to do that anymore. And so I really wanted to name that my experience might feel particularly different to anyone who’s sitting out there and in a lot of reactivity, feeling a lot of defensiveness, feeling a lot of judgment, feeling a lot of fear, feeling a lot of perfectionism.

Those are all signs that your nervous system has got a hold of you. And also I’m 41 years old, you know, like I’m headed into perimenopause and I’ve lived up for a minute. So any younger folks that are listening to this, this takes time, cultivation, curiosity, really leaning in, building a type of fortitude, a type of strength, welcoming the pain, the grief that comes with embracing who you really are.

And most of us spent our life embracing the pain of struggling to truly connect.

[00:26:09]Lisa: Struggling to try to be somebody else that is more acceptable socially.

[00:26:14] Piper: Yeah. We have an incredible primal drive in this nervous system to attach to others, to be safe through connection. We need it. We need connection, I understand it completely. And for better or worse, trans and non-binary folks often have to sacrifice connection up top in the beginning of their journeys in order to pursue their authentic self.

[00:26:39] Lisa: And also I believe, but that’s of course just my outside view, is that in that lies the chance of those people that you are actually connecting with, being true connections, heartfelt connections, deep connections, right? Quality over quantity.

[00:26:53] Piper: Yes. I tell people this all the time, you only need five really tight people in your life.

And the best advice I give the young people and really anyone, is the more you know what you value, you align with those values, you work to align with those values and you bring that into the world, as yourself, as fully as you can be, as vulnerable as you can be, you will not question when someone says to you, “I love you.” You’ll know it. You’ll feel it.

[00:27:31] Lisa: And when you were speaking about identity and the shifting and the changing, I reflected for myself because well, I am a woman, I’m cis-gendered, I’ve been born a woman, I feel as a woman. And still I hold many different identities because identity isn’t just about who I love or the sex organs I have.

It’s also about what kind of humor I have. It’s what kind of movies I like, what kind of music and dance I like. And even in my business, I realized, I’m evolving, I’m learning new things, I’m becoming interested in different aspects of the bigger topic that I’m working with or even a whole different topic altogether at times.

And there must be space for this exploration because that’s what life is. Life is constantly reproducing. And evolving. It’s not doing the same thing over and over and over again. It’s creating difference, variations. And that’s what gives more flavors to life. And that’s what makes life more interesting, isn’t it?

[00:28:50] Piper: Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, not a lot of folks are super comfortable with that. Because that’s part of the mystery. If I explore my sense of humor in this way, if I dress this different way, if I pick up this different hobby, what are the consequences for the stability that I’ve experienced in my life?

I mean, I think a lot of people can relate to changing your career and how scary that is. Why? Because there’s so much identity wrapped up in it. But at the same time, at a superficial level, we just say, “I’m going to change jobs.” It seems very easy, but it’s very challenging to our identities.

And I love moments like that because it gives every individual … like, where there is change, there is choice. We get to transform. That is literally what we’re doing. And I love what you’re saying, leaning into it and being able to taste all the different flavors of Lisa that are going to pop up on the the fae of life. I love that.

[00:29:47] Lisa: And that’s, yeah, the Mystery. The Mystery is something our brains don’t understand, for sure, and that, of course, leads to nervous system activation. And I just want to say again, you don’t know what’s – that’s why it’s a mystery – you don’t know what’s on the other side.

And usually the Universe, if you believe in that, if you believe in God or Goddess or the Divine or Source or angels, your flavor is your flavor. But they usually present us with something far better than we have even expected, when we are open to receiving and don’t have a fixed thought about “This is what it needs to look like or else it’s a failure.”

[00:30:36] Piper: Yeah. Yeah. And I think if we were to even go through everything that we’ve talked about and break it down into practical, actionable tools: One, understand what your beliefs are. What beliefs as deeply, you know, unconscious as you can get, like get into just what you notice, whether or not you believe it’s true, anything top of mind as deep as you can get.

Just laying all the beliefs out and then saying which of these align with the values that I hold and who I really want to be going forward, which ones need to be changed, which ones need to be challenged, which ones need to be thrown out. And that’s like a very practical tool for anyone going into perimenopause and menopause.

Just right now, just do that. That’s like a very practical thing. Write it out, 30 minutes of your time. And you’ll see that just by identifying the beliefs you hold, taking the time to examine it, doing that self-inquiry, it’s going to change the way that you enter into this beautiful, magical transformation.

[00:31:37] Lisa: Yeah. And there is one more thing that I just now remembered that I wanted to say is: In this change and when I say I’m exploring different identities and shifting all the time, my values, they stay the same. Like, my core values, that’s what makes me, me, and whether I get to express that in a job working for someone else, or whether I do that in my business, or whether I do that with my family or with my friends, doesn’t matter, because it’s my values and no one can take that away from me.

[00:32:08] Piper: Yeah. And making space here for everyone, I do want to say there are ways for all of us to coexist, even if we don’t understand each other, even if we don’t believe that what the other person is doing is quote unquote, “right”. When we give respect and space, and we realized we don’t actually have to be in community with everyone directly – that’s the beauty of our tight circle of five.

And I just want to name that women are powerful, and they relate to their bodies and their identities, their goddesshood, whatever language you use, it’s so beautiful. And if you’re a man going through perimenopause, a non-binary person going through menopause, however you can relate in a loving, values-driven way with your experience, or even a neutral way with your experience, a neutral fortitude building way, like, fuck yes, whatever that is, yes to that.

You can’t do it wrong. Just leaning in with compassion, leaning in with generosity, you can’t do it wrong. Whatever your identity is, if you’re leaning in with those values, and that curiosity, that generosity, that compassion, then this is an opportunity to grow into something that, to your point, you couldn’t possibly imagine before and is probably going to be beyond your wildest dreams.

So I just, I really want to encourage any identity, wherever you are, like lean in, love it, celebrate it, enjoy it.

[00:33:45] Lisa: Yes, please. And maybe the second, or tied into your practical example, is getting clear on what do you actually value in life, what do you value in yourself, and according to that, look at your beliefs and which beliefs align with that – and again, which have to be changed or which have to be let go of.

And of course, because change, especially deep change like that, is scary, that’s why there are people like Piper and myself who support others through that time of change. Not because we believe that we know the answers for you, no, but because we have a tight riverbed through which you can find your own answers and what’s right and true for you uniquely. Because as you say, it’s different for every person, for every human being.

[00:34:36] Piper: Yeah, this is really why I did become a therapist, is because even like, the diagnostics, statistics, manual and things, don’t tell me what the person’s experience needs to be. You know, I’m not going to tell them how to get somewhere that some list of signs and symptoms that are somehow appropriate – like, we are much more complex and beautiful than that.

And I want everyone to be telling me where they want to go. That’s what I’m interested in. So same with the menopause journey. Where do you want to be? And what are you willing to let go of to welcome it? Also I want to say, again, going back to that nervous system stuff, a lot of that can be met doing inner child work and inner teen work, like really building those inner relationships.

And in my experience, if I address the fears with compassion, and I commit that even though I’m leaning into healthy elderhood, and I’m leaning into a kind of erotic post-menopausal power, and I’m leaning into a new mystery, if it doesn’t feel comfortable, or sometimes it doesn’t feel good, I commit to being willing to sit with the discomfort and let it continue to teach me how to grow.

So I think that that’s another important thing that I use as a psychological safety net. If I don’t, I do get afraid that I’m putting demands that it will look or feel a certain way, good and easy, and I have to give myself another layer to really say yes to being curious, which is, “You know what, no matter what happens, I know I have my back. I know I’ll hold myself in those fears with compassion and whatever is uncomfortable or hard. I know I can really show up for that for myself and to ask all those people who love me because I am very authentic with them and I know that they love me, I can ask them for help.” So that is also really important for me moving into times of great mystery.

[00:36:54] Lisa: Thank you Piper. If folks would like to work with you or just connect or ask something or start a conversation on anything that you’ve shared, that we’ve shared, where can they find you? What’s your preferred way of being contacted?

[00:37:13] Piper: Well, there’s two ways. There’s Instagram where you can find me @shadowplaycoaching, it’s all one word. Or you can go to my website, which is piperrosecoaching.com and you’ll see the shadow play coaching and you’re welcome to set up a discovery call or send a message. And I would love to hear other people’s thoughts and experiences. Yeah. Thank you so much for this time today, Lisa.

[00:37:40] Lisa: I will definitely put everything into the show notes and, yeah, folks, please do reach out. We value a good conversation, an open and curious exploration of what anything that we shared has brought up for you, what resonates with you, maybe what you strongly disagree with. Always open for these conversations as well.

So thank you Piper for being here [Piper: Thank you for having me.]

And see you next time. [Piper: See you next time.] Bye.

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